Hi everyone

I'm new to the site today, so forgive me if some of this has been discussed previously.

I've bought into Whiteoaks2 and it's delayed by 9 months, this is of concern, but it would appear that other developments in Bansko are also delayed. What is of greater concern is the possible lack of a management company!

I agree that long term I think it will be a good investment both in terms of summer and winter lets. The ALPINE VALLEY website (www.alpinevalley.co.uk) may be of interest.

The above site also mentions about the addition of another Gondola, but I have no further info as to when it might come on tap.

Whilst we do not have a legal standing as regards not paying the final instalment, I do feel that if sufficient numbers complain directly to PDI or collectively as a group, then we may reach agreement with them re keeping back a small amount until Act 16 has been secured.

What do you think?

hi - i just found this website today as i received an email today with an update about whiteoaks and did an online search and found this site. seems a lot of people very angry with events that have taken place. it seems people are upset on a number of different issues. i am well aware of the delay, but didn't know about the lack of mgmt company coming in to run the place. is there an organized effort to find a mgmt company by the owners? i have been to bansko twice and do think over time it will be a good destination and investment but it is having massive growing pains and infrastructure not keeping up pace with the number of places that are being built. i know Colliers is managing a new resort in razlog on the golf course that has already opened and they are having success signing up with tour guides and corporate clients. i am keen to get more involved as it comes closer to completion. are there any concrete ideas being discussed that can help all of us owners make the situation any better? seems to me that finding a mgmt company would be the best place to start. can't do anything about the delay and it seems that there are not many options re the final payment. happy to discuss

Not strictly true regarding force majeure JOC - the delay in getting a building permit was nowhere near the 2 years late that we are now looking at for completion.

People who are looking for a quick sale will be disappointed - we all need to hang onto our apartments and not sell out at a lower price - whatever value we have left will be severely dented if we all take  the "willing to sell at a loss" route.

We are lucky in some respects that Whiteoaks is in an excellent situation and should be of a high quality (hopefully) when finished - when infrastructure is complete we will have as good a chance  as anyone when a resale market is initiated.

Although it doesn't look like it now I still believe that in 5 years time it will turn into a decent investment for us all

The delay was force majeure so we have no ground to stand on in a court of law

Just found this forum by chance.  We have bought into Whiteoaks Lodge 1 (Block A - Floor 3) and like you we still owe the 40% final payment.  We are also concerned with the slow progress, lack of information from Platinum.  We also don't have a solicitor and that really worries us.  Could anyone recommend a good solicitor that we could use at this stage.  We don't want to make any more payments until we have this security at least. 

We were naive to sign up so easily and regret now - we figured, with Brent Pope, etc. it was a safe bet!!  I don't think that we can pull out of the deal because of its delay, etc.  We probably wouldn't get our money back.  Also, we haven't made any inspection trips there (totally mad I think). 

We are concerned about the Act 15, Act 16 mentioned.  We didn't know anything about that.  We figured that final payment would be demanded once all works (internal and external) were completed and basically the property was ready for use.  We also figured that management would take care of everything re rental, etc. 

We need to rent this place out when its completed to cover maintenance costs, etc.  Any advice on offer would be greatly appreciated.  Also, just to repeat, could someone please recommend a good solicitor for us.

It's common practise in Bulgaria (in fact the law) that final payment is made on Act 15, despite the property not being fully finished or "habital". This is not the only country to follow this law and we would not have any grounds to make the final payment and later.

It's infuriating but not a lot which can be done about this point

As I thought - my solicitor says Platinum are fully entitled to their final payment once Act 15 has been issued - he has informed me of the following:

In Bulgaria developers talk of completion
as Act 15. This is when they
have completed all building works and
expects to hand over the property (sign
title deeds) and receive final payment.
However, the habitation licence (Act
16) can only be applied for once Act 15
has been received. This can take another
month or so depending on how fast the
local municipality works and although
some developers are happy to let owners
move in on Act 15, legally no one
can live in the unit until Act 16 has been
achieved even though you have paid in
full, signed deeds and received keys.

You can't live in a property without Act 16 so are we really going to hand money over on that basis.

My solicitor has been of no use in the past so I don't expect him to back anyone up on this.

As I've mentioned previously "respected developers" of which there are a few in Bansko do not expect payment until Act 16 is issued.

Imagine having to wait for Platinum to complete the roads and infrastrucre around Whiteoaks when we don't owe them any money - it will take for ever!

would everyone please consult  your lawyers on paying final payment I think you will find they are not entitled to the final payment until you are signing the notary deed dont be bullied by their legal team once you have handed over your money they have no incentive to finish the development .Would you even consider doing that in your own country.Please read the Aheloy forum for info on how they treated their customers there

Regards Sandra

Mayo Advertiser Newspaper - Interview with Brent Pope - Current Publication Date: 20/06/2008

Bulgaria a smart place to invest your money

.......Platinum Developments will be showcasing its stunning range of properties from as little as €39,000 this Saturday and Sunday at the g Hotel Galway from 12 noon. Seminars on investing abroad will run throughout the day.

An opportunity for all disgruntled customers to meet PDI's marketing manager face to face to put forward the questions outlined in this board ?

Hi again,

This morning, PDI's Dublin office verbally confirmed a completion date for Whiteoaks as August 31st 2008.  Also, final payment will not be sought until Article 15 has been obtained, as final signoff for the building cannot be obtained by Platinum until this Article has been issued.

Regards

Thankyou all for your many e mails regarding the problems on the 4th floor. I would like to repeat my request for anyone who has not yet joined the action group to contact me

thanks sandra 

Hi All,

Stumbled across this message board while doing a search to see if there were any other disgruntled Whiteoaks purchasers with PDI.  I purchased in Whiteoaks in Feb 2006 and like many of you have reluctantly paid the additional interim payment with the final payment outstanding.  I am concerned by the lack of proactive customer service shown by PDI in Dublin and their Bulgarian sub office.

I have had a couple of email exchanges with Kristina (Bulgarian office manager for Bankso sales) and although I have found her cooperative in responding to my queries regarding the delay in completion I think we I need to begin following up with PDI's Dublin main office.

My main enquiry is about the relevancy of clause 4.1 in the agreement document which states that the seller is oblidged to construct the real estate no later than Dec 31st 2007.  I was of the view that instead of looking for a penalty (as the agreement is now technically void as there is no provision stating that the rest of the agreement remains in force should any part of the agreement not be implemented) I would request a return of funds paid to date.  Has anyone previously issued such a request to PDI in Dublin ?

I would be oblidged if someone could confirm if PDI have given written confirmation that a management agreement with a tour operator will not in fact be put in place.

Additionally when we travelled there on an inspection trip in 2006, we were repeatidly informated that most of the PDI Dublin staff had also purchased apartements.  I wonder how many of these PDI employees still hold there properties and how many have been flipped to unsuspecting memebers of the public (such as myself).

Thank you

hi all

i have an apartment on the 4th floor but i think it is block c. what problems are you aware of ,as when i spoke to mary-ann at pdi in sofia yesterday she said there was a problem with 1 apartment on the 4th floor, but it was a case of it not being as big as stated when sold, and this was being dealt with appopiately.

if there are more problems can you let me know please either through this board or at ptaylortink@aol.com.

also she said apartments are still due to be completed september(did'nt say which year though!!!)

regards paul

Hi Ian thanks for putting this in red for me I dont know how to get this notice in very large font and bold it showed it that way for me yesterday but when I submitted the message it came up the way you can see below . Platinum have gone quiet on me as expected

Regards Sandra

THE PROBLEM MAY NOT BE LIMITED TO TOP FLOOR APARTMENTS IN THIS BLOCK ONLY - SUGGEST ALL PURCHASERS PROCEED WITH CAUTION

I wanted this message to draw attention but I cant get it to change font or underline if anyone else can get my message below to come up very large and bold please give it a go

Regards Sandra

cant get this to come up on the screen

red alert we are seeking owners of apartments on the 4th floor particularly block A there is a major problem

s.johnson8@ntlworld.com

This company come well recommended - British owned and situated in Bansko itself - furniture looks pretty good if a little on the expensive side - if enough seem interested perhaps we could get a group discount?

Have a look and see what you think

www.creativeinteriors.effecta.co.uk

Hi everyone

I bought at Whiteoaks 2 and soon after I moved to Australia so I feel just as nervous as most of you but this is compounded by the sheer distance from the place.

Where can I find out about your progress on furniture packs and rental agents?

Thanks

Michael

DKFS

I would definitely say stick with it. If you bought the property in the first place then you must have been aware that there was a risk buying off-plan. Personally i don't think it's worth loosing the paid 60% but then it's your money.

As i mentioned to Sandra on email, I think we could do ok from rental if we market it ourselveas correctly (as a group) as well as using a management company.

Hold on in there. Our place is in a good location compared to so many others. Imagine if it were 5km out.

I dont think you will be able to sell to the Russians yet but you also need to be wary about the Russian mafia.Look at the ask about money forum there is a thread on selling to the Russians there

sorry everyone about the scappy news letter today not used to sending e mails with attachments to multiple recipients

Regards Sandra

Hello dkfs

Almost everyone who has bought in Bansko feels the same a you do - I too have a 40% final payment to make but I will be paying it once I'm happy with the final contract.

In no way can I afford to walk away from the 60 per cent I've already paid. If you bought to flip you have no chance. Hang in there until the infrastructure is sorted (could be 5 years minimum) and then see what position you are in. The Russians are very interested in Bansko as having second homes but their interest will not be confirmed until everything in Bansko settles down.

I do believe that we will get the second gondola, its just a question of when and there are other things that are in the pipeline too.

My advice would be for you to at least try and rent your place out to friends etc. if you have to so that you can cover your maintenance costs. Then, after a few years, you may be able to sell.

Regards, Wicksy

Hi

just  found this site by accident - am very concerned about the whiteoaks development and the delays in completing same. In particular i was very concerned about the heavy handed methods used to collect the stage 2 payment - i did not want to pay same because of the delays and i did not feel that the property was at a developed enough stage to warrant payment of same.

i also feel that Platinum Develpments promised one thing but are not delivering on those promises i.e. rental, furniture deals and management company.

i e mailed Platinum Development today regarding some queries i had, and they advised me that they would definitely have a management company in place in order to maintain the development and to 'assist' in rental - not guaranteed obviously

still owe an amount for the final payment and am wondering at this stage should i just cut my losses and pull out of the deal - i know i will lose all of the money i have already paid but am really worried about throwing good money after bad - has anyone been over there to see what the place is actually like?

I will keep reading messages and hoping that someone will have  a postive message soon

Regard

DKFS

Hi JOC

Have had several e mails from Sandra but am not sure of your e mail address.

If you want me to send you the pics e mail me at dave.wickham@northeast-press.co.uk and I'll get them to you.

Regarding the laywer - it is probably worth paying a bit extra - mine only charged 500euros but is totally useless.

Regards

Wicksy

I've emailed DreamHomes asking for the photos. Wicksy - were you on the group email Sandra sent out? If so then you should have my emial adderss. PLease can you email me those photos? Thanks

Dreamshomes recommended Manzanares Internation Lawyers. I've searched the internet and I can't seem to find any bad feedback. They're more expensive (1000euros) but they are a much larger organisation so probably have better expertise. Am not sure whether to go with them or not.

Has anyone heard anything good or bad about them?

Sandra - sorry i haven't got back to your newsletter yet. Haven't had a chance. Will do today hopefully

Hi all

Have received new pics of Whiteoaks - they are not on the website yet (June 3) so you may not have seen them.

I'm a bit worried about the building opposite Whiteoaks on picture 1 - anyone know what it is? - if it's Summit Lodge its a lot closer than I thought it would be and the view (which I'd been told would be a very good one from WOA-4-3) is obviously not as described.

Hi all I was going to contact everyone individually to see if you wanted to join the group but I am not sure from your user names who exactly is already in the group. I have 7 from Whiteoaks and I sent out a group e mail 26th may if you did not receive this e mail please contact me. If you get a message from me inviting you to join the group and you you are already in it please let me know .If you feel you are not unhappy with Platinum and have already decided  on furniture and rental,I will be happy to forward the information we are gathering so you can be aware of the problems other owners are having and maybe you can give us some help with how to avoid future problems Thanks

Sandra

Hi all

I am in the process of getting a lawyer. He is Emil Trifinov, I heard about him on the talkbansko website(he is a contributor on the site). I have to send him my passports and pre-lim contract. He charges 700euros which is to be paid up front or in 2 installments

My e-mail address is brian_dooher@yahoo.co.uk

Brian

My lawyer had difficulty with the initial contract (Iwill e mail her response to me to the group) I think that PDI have made the contract very easy for them to reneague on their promises.I have just watched the DVD I was given to see if there was any mention of the rental contract and sure enough it was mentioned that they had a management company and that the apartments would rent easily but no guarantee mentioned.

Dream Homes gave me all sorts of duff information over the phone so I think it best if we get as much information together in writing as we can

Regards Sandra

Hello again JOC

My Bulgarian lawyer has been a disaster - he changed nothing in the preliminary contract and never answers e mails - I will more than likely dump him.

As mentioned earlier good lawyers are recommended on the Talkbansko website - I wish I had discovered it before I'd committed myself to my lawyer, Todorov.

Cheers, Wicksy

I've just had confirmation from PDI through my agent (Dream Homes WorldWide also) that although it is not detailed on the standard contract, the kitchen includes "upper and lower kitchen cabinets, worktop and sink. Tiled splash back on work tops".

I am thinking that it may be best for some of us to use the same lawyer. Wicksy or Sandra - can you let me know who you have gone with and have they been of any use?

Many THanks

Jo

Just had word back from Whiteoaks Account  Manager, Maria Velkova, she has confirmed that there will be no rental agreement with the tour operators. She says that Whiteoaks was never advertised as having any form of fixed rental.

She may well be right so far as website advertising goes but the agent I went through (Dream Homes Worldwide) stated that they were actually talking to tour operators before the ground had even broken for Whiteoaks (obviously a lie).

Never mind, we will just have to get our own management company - I'm not too bothered about this seeing as the tour operator rental deals are normally a rip off in any event.

I still say that if the build quality matches the location of the development we will be ok once everything settles down.

does any one know what exactly is involved in act 15 I was very surprised at how little was done for act 14 I thought it would at least have had the roof on

Regards Sandra

Hi JOC

Go to the talkbansko.com website - good info on solicitors/lawyers on there.

Cheers, Wicksy

Hello all

I've uploaded the latest pics if you haven't seen them.

Regards

Wicksy

Hi Sandra

Everyone will struggle to rent or sell at this moment in time. Once the infrastructure is in place, which will no doubt take a long time, things will look a lot brighter.

I feel sorry for those who have bought apartments away from the gondola - they will have litle or no chance of selling and renting even in 5 years time.

Because Whiteoaks seems to be well situated we are better placed than most to rent out and perhaps sell on in the future. I just hope that the build quality is good enough to perhaps tempt the odd Russian or two to purchase in 3-5 years time!

Maria has e mailed me some more pics and will get back to me regarding my query on roof space etc. - I'll upload the images on here if I can.

Hi Wicksy,one of the other users on this forum has a property in sunny beach which had a four year rental agreement from Platinum she has suggested a british rental company for Whiteoaks and I have e mailed them for some info,although as I said in my e mail to the group If we don't have the deeds well before the next season we have little chance of being able to advertise them .The person I mentioned was out there in March and was impressed.I personnaly feel the are far too many apartments built and we will find it hard to either rent or sell ours.I still haven't heard from my lawyer re act 16

Regards Sandra

I've e mailed Maria at PDi and asked her whether or not Platinum's much heralded excellent relationship with tour operators is going to result in us getting zero rentals.

I've also asked her if its true that the headroom on the top floor is very limited as this would be no good to me being over 6ft. 2in.

Has anyone on here actually been over recently and seen the progress being made and if so what do they think about quality, location etc.

Will let you all know if and when I get a reply from Maria.

I was told White Oaks came with Kitchen excluding white goods was was anyone else told this

Regards Sandra

To MyBansko: European Furniture Solutions  (www.europeanfurnituresolutions.com) set up by the agency I purchased my apartment through. Pricing varies dependant on if you go for silver, gold or platinum and if you go for a kitchen or not. As Whiteoaks does not come with a kitchen, you'll need to get one. were

Has anyone else looked at this company? How do they compare? The bonus is that they arrange everything for you, however I'm sure we'd be paying for this. Perhaps however if we were to give them a group of apartments we could get some discount?

Jo

Hi JOC, I see your point, Whiteoaks isn't quite ready for furniture packs  I just read some posts earlier in the thread and there was talk of Furniture packs. Is "European Furniture Solutions" Platinum's provider or someone you cantacted yourself?

Thanks

MyBansko

To: MyBansko. Have you looked at the pdi website for udated photos? New ones posted 10 May http://www.pdi.ie/Properties-For-Sale/Ski-Resorts/Bansko/Whiteoaks-Lodge-1/Building_Progress.html

Wicksy: Thanks for the info. I have contacted the agency I bought my apartment through to gain their views on the situation so will let you know their response.

For any "private" discussions (i.e. if you can't write it on this site) please contact me at jocsingapore@yahoo.com

Many Thanks

Jo

HI everyone,sounds to me like Wicksy has done his homework,great to hear from you wicksy and good to know you feel as strongly as the rest of us about Platinums bullying tactics,but I think we still have a lot of fighting to do before we get our apartments.

To everyone in the group wanting to look at group private rentals and furniture packs, I will e mail you all this week with an update on each others views.none of you have phoned me or given me your phone numbers yet,can you please let me know how you feel about sharing your information .I didn't send my last e mail to all members of the group as I wasn't very well organised , but now I have a bit more time I would like to set up a more organised list and please let me know if you want to include any comments about Platinum which we can't put on the forum( remember MRI threatened the askaboutmoney.com forum with legal action over remarks made on the forum) and they had to close it down.

Regards Sandra

Hi All,

I'm buying in another one of Platinum's developments (Whitepeak Lodge)

Could you tell me what furniture packs have you been offered by Platinum, could you give me an indication of the price and who the supplier is.

Many Thanks,

MyBansko

Everyone will probably find this quite interesting

Quote from www.justlanded.com

"Occupancy Permit - All new property (including off-plan purchases) must be issued with an ‘Act 16’ (or ‘Akt 16’) certificate – sometimes referred to as an occupancy permit – by the municipal authority. Under Bulgarian law a property isn’t complete until is has been granted an Act 16 certificate, which confirms that the building has been ‘finished’, i.e. that all electricity, plumbing, insulation, walls, doors and windows have been installed. Your builder or the developer organises the Act 16 certificate.

An Act 16 certificate isn’t to be confused with an Act 15 certificate, which is issued when the basic construction is finished (and usually coincides with one of the stage payments in an off-plan purchase). This does not constitute an occupancy permit.

Another source - http://www.geoinform-bg.com/en/bguide.php

Act 14 - completion of Skeleton

Act 15 - completion of Bricks & Plastering; The completion of construction is certified by executing a protocol (the so called "Act 15") which is signed by the investor, the designer, the contractor and the supervisor. Act 15 is the document evidencing the delivery and acceptance of the completed works between the contractor and the investor. With it, they certify that the works have been executed in compliance with the approved design, the "as-made" drawings, the legal requirements to construction works and the terms of the construction contract.

Based on Act 15, the supervisor prepares a final report on the execution of the works. Upon inspection of the completed works and the relevant documents, the committee issues Protocol 16 for accepting or rejecting the works (the so called "Act 16"). Based on it, the Director of NCSD issues the operation permit.